Today, in Ways to Avoid Probate On Your Assets you will learn the A to Z of probate and other aspects of estate planning.

So, you could have this wonderful estate plan set up. And I’ve seen it, and you think everything’s set up. I had this situation where this guy was bragging at one of my workshops about the fact that he disinherited some of his kids.

And I’m listening to him and I’m like, I don’t think you’ve disinherited anyone. You’ve redone your estate plan and named who you want to get the money, but you haven’t changed any of your corresponding titles or beneficiary designations. IRAs pass via beneficiary.

Transcript: Wealth Inside and Out® Podcast – Ways to Avoid Probate On Your Assets

Hi, my name is Annette Bau (bah oo), your host of the Wealth Inside and Out® Podcast. I’m a Certified Financial Planner™ and founder of The Millionaire Insider®.

For over 30 years, I have been advising and researching the top 1% of millionaires.

I am passionately obsessed with money, mindset, and the intersection of self-worth and net worth and how the two connect and allow us to live fulfilled and wealthy lives on our terms.

From Humble Beginnings…

Growing up in the Midwest, I had a dream. And, I began investing $25 a month 35 years ago, and today have a multimillion-dollar net worth.

I teach the tried-and-true principles that only someone with over three decades of experience advising millionaires would know. This podcast is different – it’s about much more than money. We talk about mindset, success, money blocks, worth barometer, and all aspects of money and topics from practical manifestation, along with real-world how-to, and everything in between, with the goal of making your journey easier and more fun.

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This is the Wealth Inside and Out® Podcast.

Annette
Welcome to

“Ways to Avoid Probate.”

And today I have a special guest, Oscar Alvarez. So welcome, Oscar.
Oscar
Well, thank you for having me, Annette.
Annette
Oh, it’s great to have you. And I’m going to get back to you in one minute.

FREE Estate Planning Checklist

Before we do that, I want to tell everyone about our free resource.

It’s our Estate Planning Checklist. You can go to This checklist is a guide that provides insight on ways to avoid probate and provides you with the steps you need to take to make sure your entire estate plan is in order, and it is priceless.

It can save you a lot of time, money, and stress. So again, https://themillionaireinsider.com/epc.

One of the things I have found in my career is that when people have their estate plans in order, they spend less money. More money goes to their heirs, and they have less stress. They have fewer things to worry about. And I also have seen studies that show people live longer.

I encourage you to download this free guide. Again, https://themillionaireinsider.com/epc. You’re going to love that resource.

Disclosure

All the materials and intellectual property are copywritten by millionaireseries.com®. The information we provide is not intended to replace any advisor or specialist or to provide you with any investment, estate, financial, tax, retirement, or any planning or healthcare advice.

All participants agree to hold millionaireseries.com® and its affiliates harmless for results achieved or not achieved. And that’s especially important today because we are not attorneys.

Introduction

We are both CFP’s®. Oscar is also a CDFA®, Certified Divorce Financial Analyst.

We are not attorneys, but we do a lot of estate planning in conjunction with attorneys. I want to be really clear on that. And I want to give you just a little bit of insight on Oscar. I’ve known Oscar for several years.

He was one of the advisors that I selected to become certified in my training. And I’ve gotten to know Oscar, and he’s just an amazing guy.

How many years have you been married?

Oscar
We’re going on 38 years now.

Annette
My gosh. We’re hitting 26, and I think that’s a milestone.

That is so amazing. He’s got two sons and he went to West Point.

Qualifications

Oscar’s a certified financial planner, as I mentioned, but he’s also been a financial planner for over 30 years. So, welcome to the 30-year club. But one of the things that I love about Oscar is that he’s very knowledgeable and he’s very real world, but he also brings it down to making it easy to understand and apply.

And I think one of the things that I find with a lot of financial advisors is they’re so smart, but when it comes to practical application, I’m like, what? Wait a minute. What did you say? Like, I can’t even follow it. And I’ve been an advisor for 35 years.

Real World Estate Planning and Ways to Avoid Probate and Other Problems

The one thing you’re going to love today in talking with Oscar is you’re going to see how he has real-world practical experience. That is so important, especially when it comes to a topic like probate and estate planning. So, again, I want to welcome you.

What is Probate

So, let’s begin, Oscar, by talking about what probate is, can you just give a bigger picture view for our listeners?
Oscar
Yes.

Probate is a legal process, and it’s designed to help an estate distribute its assets to the heir’s beneficiaries or to ensure that the debts are paid by the estate if the estate owes any debts. It’s a legal process, and it’s usually done through the court system. What you must understand, though, is every state is different and every municipality is different.

So, you have to make sure you understand what the rules are for your particular location. I think probate gets a bad name. It is kind of a checks and balances, but if you can avoid it, it would just save you a lot of time and headache, which we’ll talk about a little bit more.

Annette

Understanding Ways to Avoid Probate and How It Can Save Legal Fees

I was in a meeting once, and the attorney said when our clients left, she said, they’re lucky they have you. They’re getting their estate plan in order. She said, “A significant portion of our revenue from this firm is probate, and it’s like an annuity income stream.”

And I remember thinking, isn’t that crazy? Because attorneys are making so much money from it.

Real World Example

I have a situation that I’m working on right now where they spent thousands, even tens of thousands of dollars to get their estate plan in order, and nothing is set up correctly. Their ownership and beneficiaries are not set up correctly.

It’s just a mess. Even their insurance, they went through the pain of getting an irrevocable insurance trust known as an ILIT. And, it’s not funded; they’re not doing Crummy Notices.

I said to the attorney, “They went to all this work to complete their estate plan.” He replied, “Yeah, you just can’t make clients do it.” And I’m thinking in the back of my mind that most clients don’t even know what to do.

This is what I want to dive into. So, people are getting real-world knowledge.

Completing Your Estate Plan

Recently, I heard a person say, we just did our estate plan.

And I said that’s great. She goes, yeah, it’s so nice knowing everything’s taken care of. I said, Wait, let’s talk about that.

Advantages of Estate Planning

There are advantages to having your estate plan done, but can we talk for one minute about how assets pass?

How Assets Pass to Your Heirs

Do they pass by what it says in your trust, or do they pass by title or beneficiary? Your car passes by title. And your home passes by the title. Your bank account is going to pass by title.

Or, like, even if it’s payable on death, that’s then beneficiary, but it’s still part of the title. Your life insurance is going to pass by beneficiary designation. And, your annuities are going to pass via the beneficiary.

So, you could have this wonderful estate plan set up. And I’ve seen it, and you think everything’s set up. I had this situation where this guy was bragging at one of my workshops about the fact that he disinherited some of his kids.

And I’m listening to him and I’m like, I don’t think you’ve disinherited anyone. You’ve redone your estate plan and named who you want to get the money, but you haven’t changed any of your corresponding titles or beneficiary designations. IRAs pass via beneficiary.

Personal Assets

So, some of your personal assets and assets that maybe don’t have a title that is just in your name will pass via your estate plan. But is there anything you want to add to that, Oscar?

Oscar
You’re right.

Funding An Estate Plan

And I think one of the things that I come across quite a bit is when people bring their trust documents in, what I find is they’ve got it all setup, but they’ve never funded it.

When we say fund it, what does that mean? Did you actually go in and change the bank accounts for the trust name? And did you change the beneficiaries on your IRAs and 401Ks? Did you do everything that you said you wanted done in your trust? And nine out of ten times, people just take the book and take it home and don’t do anything else after that.

Annette
Well, and what I find because we’re so anal about it and we have an entire process for it, is if you don’t have the right process, you have got to find somebody to help you. Right? And I think one of the things that I hate to say attorneys would intentionally do that, but it’s like there’s not a major incentive for them getting it done because if it doesn’t get done, they’re going to do probate where they make a lot more money.

So again, I’m not saying that that’s intentional even though in this one law firm, it was kind of like they were joking around about how much money they were making because of it. It’s a really serious matter because you’re talking thousands, tens of thousands of dollars, even to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars. And, it’s something to be aware of.

Downside of Probate

Let’s start with a bigger picture of the downsides of probate because I get that it’s an accounting and it has some advantages but let’s talk about the downsides. What are some of the downsides that you see?

Oscar

1. Cost

Well, probably the biggest ones are first the cost. And if you think about it, the court jumps in if you pass away and things are not in order the court jumps in.

Now you’re paying court costs, you’re paying administrative fees, and you might be paying some sort of executive fee. They will assign different people to do different things and you don’t want to pay those fees but that may be part of the problem when you allow those kinds of things to happen.

2. Complexity

Some people have a simple estate, some people have more complex estates and especially if you get into like if you got a vacation home in one state and your residence in another state, all those things become more complicated. And if things aren’t in order, guess what? You’re paying somebody, an administrator or assigned executor to come by and then try to figure all that out and that’s going to all cost a lot of money.

3. Time

And so now you’re talking about how long is this going to take? Most of the time, when I see people with complex estates we’re talking two or three years before it gets cleared up and that’s if they’re lucky. Even a simple estate with just a home and a few accounts takes a year.

Impact on Children

So, for the person who has to be the executor, especially if it’s one of your children, you’re talking about a lot of time and energy for them to be able to put in to get this thing cleared up. And then think about it from the standpoint of an additional cost. If it’s one of your children doing this, and they live in another state, guess what? They’re either going to have to fly back and forth, or they’re going to have to hire a lawyer to do it all for them in the state that you resided in. So now you have that extra cost and hassle, especially for the children.

And then lastly, all this takes time. And guess what? All your assets are sitting there waiting to be distributed, and your children and heirs or whoever your beneficiaries are, it may be years before they see that money.

Annette

4. Privacy

Yeah, well, and I would just add to that public record. It’s a public process and it means anyone can get the details.

So, you can go down to the courthouse and find out exactly how much money somebody has and what assets they have. And for many of us, we want that privacy. That’s probably one of the main reasons my clients want to avoid it. I think that’s important.

Owning Homes in Different States

And then one of the things, to add to what you said, is that when you have homes in different states, you don’t get one probate. You get two.

A probate in the state you reside in as well as in the state where your second home is. And so, you must understand it.

Real World Example

And also, I had a woman in my class. This is something that I could scratch my fingernails down a chalkboard whenever I hear. But it’s like her husband handled everything, and it’s like everything’s taken care of. He’s handled it.

And that’s always like, oh my gosh. It’s like he may when he’s alive, but who’s going to handle it when he’s not here? And if you don’t know anything that’s going on, well, to make a long story short, he passed away, and everything’s handled. But it wasn’t. She didn’t know where anything was. She completes the probate.

Two years later, the probate is closed. She gets through it. And she finds the shoebox in the back of the closet with everything, a copy of his will, a copy of which I think they had another copy of the will.

A Second Probate

But life insurance policies, bearer bonds, and instructions. She had to open another probate. It cost her like three times the amount of money, and it was just a nightmare.

So, making sure you’ve got things taken care of and at least you have an idea, and you’ve got somebody else that does, is a really important aspect of estate planning. Do you have anything to add to that?

Oscar

Staying Informed

Well, both parties need to know what’s going on. I had a client whose husband passed away and he took care of all the finances, kind of like that simple rule.

And she had no idea that he had LLCs inside of LLCs. He had LLCs from, I think, Colorado and Arizona.

Wherever it’s cheap to make an LLC. I mean, it was just so complicated.

They had to hire a lawyer to get it all deciphered, which cost several thousand dollars just to figure out what it was that they had and where they had it. Well, let me add to this.

Annette

Unclaimed Assets

One of my clients just recently got this check, and it said unclaimed money.

And I’m like, don’t do anything with it. And I said I went into panic mode. I asked how this happened. She shared that she filled out this form.

I said, okay, what’s 101 when you get something? Now, this is what’s weird because all my clients know that if they get something they are not certain is legitimate, to send it to me so I can review it.

She said, “No, it looked official.” I said, “Don’t do anything with it. Send me everything.”

Well, I looked at it, and it did look official. Turns out the state of Arizona, for whatever reason, found out that she had an asset that she had not claimed.

They sent it to her.

The Value of Unclaimed Assets

Every state has unclaimed property. And several years ago it was like $7 trillion.

I’m sure now it’s probably like 30 or 40 trillion dollars in unclaimed money. And you can go to your state, to the unclaimed property website. You just have to look it up for your state of residence. Enter your information and find out if you have unclaimed assets. But when you don’t go through probate, this is something that can happen.

I’m not saying that there aren’t assets that get lost when you go through probate, because if you don’t have a balance sheet, sometimes people forget about assets. But the reality is just keeping on top of all that is so important.

Oscar
Yes.

Annette

Ways to Avoid Probate

Okay, so let’s talk about ways to avoid probate.

Oscar
Well, I think the first and easiest way is to create a living trust. But as I said earlier, make sure you fund a trust.

Basically, what the trust does is it allows for your family’s privacy to take care of everything, and everything gets distributed within the family however it is you’ve designated. But a living trust is probably the best way to accomplish that. Now, the living trust, when you set it up, you can change it at any point while you’re still alive.

However, once you pass everything’s set in stone, and everything goes by whatever it is you designated in the trust. But that’s probably the best and easiest way to take care of it. I think it’s essential if you’re trying to leave assets for maybe a disabled child or something like that. Then there’s special trust for that.

Ways to Avoid Probate with a Special Trust

But, if you’re going to distribute everything immediately, a trust is an easy way to do it. It’s even more important if you need to stretch things out because of some special family situation.

Annette

Creditor Protection on Your Assets

And if I can just add, this is kind of a side note on estate planning as compared to just probate. If you want to have creditor protection for the assets that go to your kids, you must have two trustees. You can have the child who is the beneficiary, but you must name someone else.

There’s got to be two trustees in there to be able to get creditor protection. But that’s something that is just an easy way to make sure your assets are protected if, unfortunately, your child gets sued or something happens. So, just FYI.

Oscar

Additional Insight to Avoid Probate

So, are there other ways to avoid probate?

Oscar, yes. So, what I talk to a lot of my clients about is just really a lot of the simple things you mentioned a little bit earlier about transferring assets on death to your heirs. I’ll just give you an example.

Payable on Death Designations

If you have bank accounts or brokerage accounts, there’s no place to designate a beneficiary or an heir. So, what you do is you put transferable on death on the title. And what that means is, and some people call it paid on death.

What that means is that when that person passes, it immediately goes to whoever it is you’ve indicated. And that’s probably one of the simplest ways to take care of simple things like bank accounts, brokerage accounts, and things that don’t have beneficiaries.

Beneficiary Designations

Now, you have things that do have beneficiaries.

Examples include IRAs, 401, life insurance, annuities, and even hybrid long term care insurance. You have to establish a beneficiary. And so, the money just goes straight to the beneficiary, even if your will – and this is an important note – says it’s going to be split 50-50 between two people. But your beneficiary on your life insurance, your 401k, IRAs, whatever. If it has somebody else’s name now, you’re in trouble. They will send it to the person that you indicated was the beneficiary.

It doesn’t matter what your will or your trust says; they’re sending it to the beneficiary that you have established on the account. So that’s an important note to keep in mind. But that’s what, like I said, real estate is another one I talk to many of my clients about for whatever reason.

Ways to Avoid Probate – Additional reasons it is important.

As I said, people want to avoid probate for many different reasons.

Real Estate

But the other one is people are for some reason, scared the government’s going to take their house. Well, the easy way to avoid that is if the house is paid for, you can do a transfer on death with real estate, it’s very simple. It is changing the deed, and we just call it a “transfer on death deed.” That’s basically what it’s called.

And every state has it. But you must understand what the rules are for that state because every state can be a little bit different.

Ways to Avoid Probate with a Small Estate Affidavit

One of the other things to think about as well is what’s called a small estate affidavit. Now, a small estate affidavit is a little bit different, but I want you to just try to think through this process. If all my accounts have either a beneficiary or a transfer on death, I’ve got my house that’s got a transfer on death; then there’s very little left in my estate that needs to be dealt with. And so, what that allows is for the small estate affidavit to come in.

Probate Laws Vary Between States

Now, you must check on your state law because every state is different. In Virginia, which is where I’m at, a small estate is considered anything under $50,000. And, in North Carolina, it’s 20 or $30,000, depending on the situation.

In Texas, where my folks live, it’s $25,000. So, every state is different. However, if you listen to what we’re talking about and you add transfer on death and name beneficiaries, you’ll end up taking care of almost everything even if you don’t have a trust.

It’ll be a small estate affidavit. And guess what? It’s just like that and it doesn’t take any time at all.

Annette
So that would not work for somebody who doesn’t have a lot of assets.

Oscar
Right. And that works very well for people who have very little assets.

Joint Tenants with Rights of Survivorship

It’s not complicated and that’s just an easy way to do it. The next big thing is what I call joint ownership. And most people, when they are a couple, let’s just say they open a bank account. They inadvertently do not realize that they’re doing this, but they’re doing what’s called a joint tenancy with rights of survivorship.

That means they open the bank account in both their names. Upon the death of the first spouse, the account immediately goes to the surviving spouse. There are no ifs, ands, or buts. It happens very easily.

How to Avoid an Asset Freeze

And that’s important just from the standpoint that you want to make sure it’s titled correctly. But here’s the trick, and this is where most people forget that once the first spouse passes, the second spouse needs to add a payable on death with that bank account because if that second spouse passes, the bank’s going to freeze the account. And so now whoever the executor is, is going to have to go through this whole process with the probate court system to even access the bank account.

You want to make sure when you have an asset titled joint tenant with rights of survivorship that the second spouse after the first spouse has passed, changes that to transfer on death or payable on death.

Annette
Well, and ideally, you have that in the trust. So, it’s not even an issue because then it’s not an issue.

Community Property with Rights of Survivorship

But then, isn’t there also community property with the right of survivorship if you’re in a community property state?

Oscar
Yes, it’s basically the same thing.

Annette
Yeah, but that’s so important. Obviously, if you don’t have a lot of assets, then it may not matter.

But one of the things I’ve seen is where somebody will have, they’ve been married, they had assets, joint tenants with right of survivorship. One partner dies, and then they get remarried. They’ve got their will to make sure their kids are taken care of.

Who Gets to Distribute the Money

And I have a situation right now like this, in which a woman was referred to me. It’s just a nightmare because the second wife is her age, so it’s unlikely she’s going to die anytime soon.

To make a long story short, this $50 million property has been left to the stepmother. She’s giving a lot of the income to her kids, but none to his. And what I’ve seen a lot in my career is where people own it, joint tenants. They have an “I love you will” which leaves everything to their spouse. They die and get remarried and set their estate plan that same way. The surviving spouse gets to determine who gets the money.

And a lot of times they leave more money to their children than they do to their deceased spouse’s children. Especially if there are others involved who don’t like the ex or something like that. It’s just a nightmare. So that is something critical.

Oscar

Second Marriages and Your Heirs

And I’m a big advocate for when it’s a second marriage, especially if there are more children involved, to do the trust and spell it out right from the get-go. Because most of the time you see people in court, it’s because they’re fighting over assets because it’s a second marriage and things were not done correctly. Sometimes people just get disinherited by accident.

And that’s not what you want.

Annette
Yes, especially the kids. You’ve worked so hard to leave money to your heirs and then they don’t get any.

Now, I want to just clarify one thing.

Pour Over Will

A lot of times people think a will or a pour-over will avoid probate. It does not. Instead, it allows you to pour over the assets that aren’t titled right into your trust, but you still go through.

Do you have anything to add to that?

Oscar
No, that’s absolutely correct. Yeah, it’s huge.

Annette

Additional Insight on Ways to Avoid Probate

So, is there anything else that you want to share about probate? We’ve covered a lot of things, and this has been really helpful, I think, to just get a better understanding of it.

Oscar
My recommendation is to just complete a trust. I like trusts.

I think it’s important to do a trust because that way you can spell everything out. And the biggest thing is it’s going to save your kids time, energy, and most of all, stress. If you even have a small estate that you say, well, it’s not that big, the cost to do the trust versus the cost of going through probate will probably be the same.

You’ll end up saving money if you just do the trust, in my opinion. And just do the trust and save everybody the heartache and the headache and the time that it would take to go through probate.

Annette
Yeah, and if I can just add a couple of things.

Final Insight on Ways to Avoid Probate

So, we do a process when somebody gets an estate plan where we track every asset, and we’re doing balance sheets, so we have an updated asset listing for every client. I have a client that I’ve been working with for probably over 20 years. We’ve done estate plans, they’ve revised them, and about every five years. And we just go and relook at the assets just to make sure, right? We don’t want any surprises. And it was so funny, this particular situation.

The person’s like, “It’s all taken care of. Don’t worry about it.” I’m like, “Sorry, it doesn’t work that way, I just want to look at it. Well, guess what? We found that their new house had not been put into the trust, and they had a bank account that had over $200,000 that had not been put in the trust. What was so interesting is, I think a lot of times people think like, oh, yeah, it’s all taken care of because they’ve done it once, but you need to be looking at that regularly.

How Often Should You Review the Titling of Assets and Beneficiary Designations?

Now, I don’t know if you have a recommendation.

We recommend it at least every five years, but do you have any recommendations on that?

Oscar
I try to do mine every three or four years. Okay. And that’s even better.

Now, granted, we are looking at the balance sheet, and if we see any new assets, then we immediately look at them. So, we already kind of know the assets.

Titling New Assets

But I think the other issue that I see sometimes happens is when a person purchases an investment. This example wasn’t a typical asset. It was an offering. And so it wasn’t purchased through an advisor.

I asked, “How’s that titled?” Well, the person titled the asset in their name. And I said, “Wait a minute, why didn’t you put that in the trust?” Oh, I can do that.

You’ve got to make sure, like if you’re buying any asset, I don’t care what it is, and you don’t know how to title it. Hire a professional to help you.

Naming a Beneficiary

Oh, just this morning, I had to name a beneficiary designation on one of the companies that I do business with, and it was so funny. It was my husband.

Now, he knows this stuff. He said, “Should I be the beneficiary?” I replied, “No, our trust.”

It happens all the time, even to someone like us who does this all the time. So, I just want people to be aware of that.

Is there anything else that you want our listeners to leave with other than they need to get their estate plan in order? And if they do have assets to create a trust?

Oscar
The last thing is, that even once you have it all done, you definitely need to review it periodically.

Every three years, maybe five years, it needs to be reviewed because things change. You might change your mind about something and therefore need to review it. Just don’t let it sit there.

I had a client who brought his trust in, and he said they hadn’t opened it since the day they made it twelve years ago. It needed to be reviewed.

Annette

Real World Story

I’m in this workshop and I meet this woman and she’s telling me everything that’s going on and stuff. So I said, “Well, I just need to see your documents.” She replied, “No, it’s okay.”

I reviewed the documents. And when we meet I ask, “So who is Dick Smith?” She said, “Oh, he was our best friend like 30 years ago, but he’s a complete alcoholic, drug addict, he’s been in and out of rehab.” I replied, “How do you feel about him making financial decisions on your multimillion-dollar estate?” She asked, “What do you mean?” I replied, “He’s the co-trustee if something happens to your husband.”

She about fell off her chair. That’s why you have to keep reviewing that and make sure things are taken care of. As well as making sure all your powers of attorney and medical directives are current.

Free Estate Planning Checklist

You can downloadhttps://themillionaireinsider.com/epc
the Estate Planning Checklist at

This lists everything you need to have and that you need to keep updated to make sure that you’re in line with what you need to do. It also gives you helpful insight on ways to avoid probate.

I want to thank you so much.

Conclusion – Ways to Avoid Probate

Oscar, do you have anything else to add?
Oscar
Yeah, one last thing I’d like to add is to make sure whoever the beneficiaries are, that they have a copy of your trust. That there are no surprises, especially if you’re making changes. I think open, transparent, communication with the heirs is important and it avoids a lot of headaches down the road.

Annette
If you’re really concerned about that, maybe you have the wrong person named, or you make sure you have your attorney or your CPA in the loop. And then last, but not least, one other thing you can do in your estate plan. Just a little note, you can also have a trust protector.

Interestingly enough, our trust protector is my securities attorney. And he’s like, what? And I go, he’d be great, right? Because he knows he’ll see red flags faster than anyone. So, you can also do that.

Now granted that would be for somebody who has a larger estate. However, all of a sudden you might start having millions of dollars. If that happens to be you, you want to make sure those things are taken care of. Thank you so much for this insight.

Oscar
You’re welcome.

Annette
And now you know ways to avoid probate, so you just need to go do it.

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And that doesn’t stand for non-sufficient funds.

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The number of women who were not broke or poor while working or married is staggering. Our mission for The Wealth Inside and Out® Podcast is to ensure you have critical information for you, your family, your friends, and anyone willing to listen to it and apply it to create a financially free life you love.

Click here to access your Next Step Financial Assessment:

Thank you so much for joining me for

Ways to Avoid Probate On Your Assets.

I’m Annette Bau (Bah oo).

All international copyrights are reserved.

Bye for now.